1. Today's Pakistanis in
the British Indian Army during WWII
Few peoples ignore that the British
Indian Army during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5
million (25,00,000) ; fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of
peoples from today's Pakistan, one of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to
not name them, called the "backbone of the British Indian Army"
(Lieutenant-General Sir George MacMunn.)
Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?
Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?
...On the eve of World War II almost 34,000
Punjabi Muslims were in the army (29 per cent) and during World War-II over
380,000 joined (about 14% of the total). No other class came close to these
figures: Sikhs: 116,000, Gurkhas: 109,000, Muslims of other classes from UP,
Deccan, Madras, Bengal, NWFP, etc 274,000, were recruited during 1939-1945.
Muslims as a whole constituted a quarter of the Indian Army as of 1947....
Almost 70 per cent of the wartime recruitment was from what became Pakistan...
Almost 70 per cent of the wartime recruitment was from what became Pakistan...
An informative little clip:
Punjabi Muslims:
The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan
Punjabi Muslims:
The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan
On 31st October, 1914, at Hollebeke, Belgium, the British Officer
in charge of the detachment having been wounded, and the other gun put out of
action by a shell, Sepoy Khudadad, though himself wounded, remained working his
gun until all the other five men of the gun detachment had been killed.
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Originlly Posted by akheR
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army
during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million ;
fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one
of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the
"backbone of the British Indian Army" (Lieutenant-General Sir George
MacMunn.)
Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?
http://defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm
Punjabi Muslims:
The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?
http://defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm
Punjabi Muslims:
The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
How many of them Punjabis are actually
real Punjabis and not Potoharis/Mirpuri's/Pathan's and Hindko's from Attock
etc?
The great majority was from
Rawalpindi (followed by Jhelum but also areas of NWFP and Balochistan), isn't
that the Potohar ? And how saying "Punjabis" contradicts the fact
that they were "Potoharis" ? Potoharis = sub group of Punjabis, as
far as I know (please don't quote the whole post either).
Forgotton Soldiers: Soldiers from Pakistan
Contributed by Yaser khalid
People in story:Muhammad Khan
Location of story:Turkey
Background to story:Army
Article ID: A2054387
Contributed on: 17 November 2003
Although people all over the world faced the miseries of World wars but I have two samll but interesting incidents which will reflect the sufferings of people in Pakistan.
1. This story is of a young lady who later became my grandmother. She was engaged to a soldier in then British army (now Pakistan army). His name was Muhammad Khan. Both sides were preparing for marriage when WW-11 started and he was sent to some front near Turkey. And then moved to some other front and then to other front. After couple of years, he stopped writting letters and there was no news about him. Here every body specially the young lady was waiting for her bride groom. But he never turned up. The family members convinced the lady that he must be dead in some war. After many years of waiting for a letter or any news in desperation, convinced her the soldier must be killed some where. Half heartedly the lady agreed to marry some one else(my grand father).
After couple of months a day was agreed and on that day when ceremony finished and all the guests were having their meal, a new guest came, he was the lost soldier.
He begged to the lady`s relative, but it was too late, the ceremony had already taken place. It was a real movie scene. The soldier became injured during action and then was taken prisoner by the Germans and remain there for this time, so could not communicate.
This is just a story of a single girl, we have places in Pakistan where hundreds of homes have a similar story. someone brother , someone son is missing and still don`t know what happened to them.
2. This story is of my uncle who was a Colonel in Pakistan army and now is retired. His father was a soldier in British Army and when my uncle was just a kid, his father was sent to a front on WW-11. After couple of years, there was no news about him, or no letter from him.
They tried there best to trace him but all in vain.
This kid (my uncle), grew young and got commission in Pakistan Army. Year after year, he tried to get some information, but all in vain. He went to the rank of Major and was posted to some far area/border of Pakistan, when some stranger came to meet him. He was a very old man. He told him that he was from his father`s company/unit. They both were fighting against German/Turkish forces in Turkey when his father was killed and all his fellow soldiers burried him there. He told him that his grave is still in that battle ground in Turkey.
My uncle went to that battle ground, and there ware many unnamed graves of the soldiers from sub-continent.
He had no other option to leave flowers there and come back.
Contributed by Yaser khalid
People in story:Muhammad Khan
Location of story:Turkey
Background to story:Army
Article ID: A2054387
Contributed on: 17 November 2003
Although people all over the world faced the miseries of World wars but I have two samll but interesting incidents which will reflect the sufferings of people in Pakistan.
1. This story is of a young lady who later became my grandmother. She was engaged to a soldier in then British army (now Pakistan army). His name was Muhammad Khan. Both sides were preparing for marriage when WW-11 started and he was sent to some front near Turkey. And then moved to some other front and then to other front. After couple of years, he stopped writting letters and there was no news about him. Here every body specially the young lady was waiting for her bride groom. But he never turned up. The family members convinced the lady that he must be dead in some war. After many years of waiting for a letter or any news in desperation, convinced her the soldier must be killed some where. Half heartedly the lady agreed to marry some one else(my grand father).
After couple of months a day was agreed and on that day when ceremony finished and all the guests were having their meal, a new guest came, he was the lost soldier.
He begged to the lady`s relative, but it was too late, the ceremony had already taken place. It was a real movie scene. The soldier became injured during action and then was taken prisoner by the Germans and remain there for this time, so could not communicate.
This is just a story of a single girl, we have places in Pakistan where hundreds of homes have a similar story. someone brother , someone son is missing and still don`t know what happened to them.
2. This story is of my uncle who was a Colonel in Pakistan army and now is retired. His father was a soldier in British Army and when my uncle was just a kid, his father was sent to a front on WW-11. After couple of years, there was no news about him, or no letter from him.
They tried there best to trace him but all in vain.
This kid (my uncle), grew young and got commission in Pakistan Army. Year after year, he tried to get some information, but all in vain. He went to the rank of Major and was posted to some far area/border of Pakistan, when some stranger came to meet him. He was a very old man. He told him that he was from his father`s company/unit. They both were fighting against German/Turkish forces in Turkey when his father was killed and all his fellow soldiers burried him there. He told him that his grave is still in that battle ground in Turkey.
My uncle went to that battle ground, and there ware many unnamed graves of the soldiers from sub-continent.
He had no other option to leave flowers there and come back.
How many of them Punjabis are actualy real
Punjabis and not Potoharis/Mirpuri's/Pathan's and Hindko's from Attock etc?
The great majority was from Rawalpindi (followed
by Jhelum but also areas of NWFP and Balochistan), isn't that the Potohar ? And
how saying "Punjabis" contradicts the fact that they were
"Potoharis" ? Potoharis = sub group of Punjabis, as far as I know
(please don't quote the whole post either).
Potoharis are not Punjabis Ranjit
Singh invented Punjabi it is not a real ethnicity like Pathan Balochi sindi
etc.
What were Potoharis before Ranjit Singh when the Gakkhars ruled Potohar?
Are non pashtun Hindkos such as Yasir Hameed Punjabis or how about the non Pashtun Pahari speakers? Their language is a lot closer to Punjabi that Potohari.
What were Potoharis before Ranjit Singh when the Gakkhars ruled Potohar?
Are non pashtun Hindkos such as Yasir Hameed Punjabis or how about the non Pashtun Pahari speakers? Their language is a lot closer to Punjabi that Potohari.
so in other words Pakistani muslims
were fighting to free the Jews from Nazi's crimes. So many times we have helped
them and yet we are still the bad ones, huh?
Sachnistan and Afridinistan, the
most insecure fan ever.
mani1 oh man I can already sense where the thread is heading now,
please forget these linguistic mathematics and keep in mind that they were all
from Pakistan, period.
Thanks.
Thanks.
I live in the UK the vast majority
of the Pakistani contingent in the British Indian Army was from Gujar
Khan,Mirpur,Jhelum,Chakwal and Attock, Hence why these groups are in the
majority in the UK.
Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army
during WWII
I had a racist guy in my class at
school during our history lesson we got talking about the WW1 and 2 . Anyway he
went on to say that he didn't mind the polish here because they were allies
during the wars . I got quite ****** and said what about the Indians,
Bangladeshis and Pakistanis that fought and died . His face went red as the
whole class started to listen and he had to eat his own words . Anyway the
point I was trying to make is not a lot of people know that Pakistanis or even
South east Asians fought in the wars .Sorry for going off topic .
A man who stands for nothing will
fall for anything.
Malcolm X
Malcolm X
I live in the UK the vast majority of the
Pakistani contingent in the British Indian Army was from Gujar
Khan,Mirpur,Jhelum,Chakwal and Attock, Hence why these groups are in the
majority in the UK.
Yes, those are the main areas.
But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
Yes, those are the main areas.
But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
I don't think they care unless they
want to brag "Potohar shera na ilhaqa"
I don't think they care unless they want to brag
"Potohar shera na ilhaqa"
My grandfather fought against the
Japanese in Burma in the Second World War. Japan had committed horrific crimes
against the Chinese, the Rape of Nanking being one example and had actually
inflicted a severe defeat on the British in Singapore. It was the British
Empire's last hurrah but it must have been extraordinary to see ordinary
officers from the Commonwealth and from the developing world, fighting side by
side with the white aristocratic class that ruled over them in London.
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army
during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million ;
fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one
of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the
"backbone of the British Indian Army"
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Well you've answered your own
question. In Britain, no one is aware that the British army had any foreign
soldiers, never mind Pakistanis who died for the cause. Why would Punjabis be
proud of it when their host nation isn't?
Yes, those are the main areas.
But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
Yes they do. They were invited to
come the uk in the 50s and 60s., that is how my father came to the UK. My
mother still receives british war pension, its very meagre amount nothing to
shout about.
People who fought in ww2 in my family
Father - burma
Uncle - north africa
Maternal Grandfather's brother 1
Maternal Grandfather's brother 2 - japanese pisoner of war
Many more relatives from both mother and father's side
Prior to that both my paternal and maternal grandfathers were in british army. Many more people i can mention but you get the idea.
After losing power to ranjit singh back in early part of 19th century, the rajputs of the area realised oh **** better do something worthwhile to earn a living, but their ego would not let them work in fields like their peasants.... jatts, arains etc.. Instead, they would prefer to join the army as it was considered a noble profession.
People who fought in ww2 in my family
Father - burma
Uncle - north africa
Maternal Grandfather's brother 1
Maternal Grandfather's brother 2 - japanese pisoner of war
Many more relatives from both mother and father's side
Prior to that both my paternal and maternal grandfathers were in british army. Many more people i can mention but you get the idea.
After losing power to ranjit singh back in early part of 19th century, the rajputs of the area realised oh **** better do something worthwhile to earn a living, but their ego would not let them work in fields like their peasants.... jatts, arains etc.. Instead, they would prefer to join the army as it was considered a noble profession.
Last edited by Eagle_Eye; 22nd March
2013 at 22:40.
nice topic akher bro
my paternal grandfather died fighting the japanese. no one from my family knew much about what happened as the only person to return back to our village went kind of crazy and claimed my paternal grand father was still alive, had lost his memory and went awol.
as it happens i grew up with tales of how my paternal grandfather may still be alive in japan or something until i was trying to google map my village and after putting in its name got lead to a war memorial website.
checked it out and there it was, apparently in singapore the last remnant of my paternal grand father is his name etched into a war memorial. he fought in the punjab 3/16 and after much research i managed to find out exactly how he died, most likely on the malaysia thai border in operation krohcol.
took about 65 years but my dad eventually found out what happened to his dad, and knowing now what he do of how the japanese treated prisoners, it was pbly for the best.
disclaimer: apparently im not really punjabi since im pothwari, learn something new everyday
my paternal grandfather died fighting the japanese. no one from my family knew much about what happened as the only person to return back to our village went kind of crazy and claimed my paternal grand father was still alive, had lost his memory and went awol.
as it happens i grew up with tales of how my paternal grandfather may still be alive in japan or something until i was trying to google map my village and after putting in its name got lead to a war memorial website.
checked it out and there it was, apparently in singapore the last remnant of my paternal grand father is his name etched into a war memorial. he fought in the punjab 3/16 and after much research i managed to find out exactly how he died, most likely on the malaysia thai border in operation krohcol.
took about 65 years but my dad eventually found out what happened to his dad, and knowing now what he do of how the japanese treated prisoners, it was pbly for the best.
disclaimer: apparently im not really punjabi since im pothwari, learn something new everyday
Both of My grandfathers fighted for
english army.My (DADA)N got injured in the plane by bulled so had to come
back,He was in army in first world war aswell.
He also fought the kashmir war and got some medal aswell,and also 40 canal worth land.
My (nana) ship has a inside man of japan as captain,and they surrendered to japan.he was jailed there for 10 years.
He also fought the kashmir war and got some medal aswell,and also 40 canal worth land.
My (nana) ship has a inside man of japan as captain,and they surrendered to japan.he was jailed there for 10 years.
and I am kashmiri,japenese gave
people who were there prisoners compensations 2 3 years back but my Nana had
already died by that time,6 7 years back.
Japanese army was very cruel to the
british pows. Japanese PoWs in my family did not live long after the war.
Inspiring stories really thanks for
sharing.
Japanese army was very cruel to the british
pows. Japanese PoWs in my family did not live long after the war.
Japan rather bluntly called their
policy "Kill all, rape all, loot all". There are stories of how
Chinese POWs were shackled together and kicked down into holes where rabid dogs
tore their flesh apart. The Japanese were awful in their conduct.
My grandfather suffered an eye injury in Burma, I should try and dig up some documents if possible.. I doubt he'd approve of the savage Burmese state in existence today.
My grandfather suffered an eye injury in Burma, I should try and dig up some documents if possible.. I doubt he'd approve of the savage Burmese state in existence today.
Japan rather bluntly called their policy
"Kill all, rape all, loot all". There are stories of how Chinese POWs
were shackled together and kicked down into holes where rabid dogs tore their
flesh apart. The Japanese were awful in their conduct.
My grandfather suffered an eye injury in Burma, I should try and dig up some documents if possible.. I doubt he'd approve of the savage Burmese state in existence today.
My grandfather suffered an eye injury in Burma, I should try and dig up some documents if possible.. I doubt he'd approve of the savage Burmese state in existence today.
The japanese were savagely cruel.
My father also fought on the burmese front, was shot in the chest and survived, had to come home early. Doubt he would have approved what Burma has become today. Did you catch the Sky news report on Burmese violence today?
My father also fought on the burmese front, was shot in the chest and survived, had to come home early. Doubt he would have approved what Burma has become today. Did you catch the Sky news report on Burmese violence today?
for those interested heres a war memorial page, i linked to the singapore one
because thats the one i had faved. if you search through you start to find so
many people, i found 6 from in and around my village out of which i think my
dad had heard of 2 people.
Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army
during WWII
You guys are lucky to know your
family history . Of the little I know I have an great uncle who fought in 65
and 72 . After my grandad I don't know a lot about who was around before his
time .
A man who stands for nothing will
fall for anything.
Malcolm X
Malcolm X
You guys are lucky to know your family history .
Of the little I know I have an great uncle who fought in 65 and 72 . After my
grandad I don't know a lot about who was around before his time .
lols, i got the whole story when i
went to the village few years back....
legend goes a powerful landowner got his daughter wed, granted her some lands and as was custom then some men came and lifted her doli to take her to her to be inlaws for the wedding...
on the way there nature called so she demanded that she be let off to do what she had too, but as it was against tradition she was forbidden to do so repeatedly, eventually she got so annoyed she got out of the carraige or whatever it was and told the lot of them to bog off and she settled the lands her father gave her.
worrying about her security her father ordered his son (her brother) and his wife to go settle near her and look after her and we were the descendents of her brother and sister in law, but the village is named after her, which pbly explains a lot about the women in my family (joking).
could all just be old wives tales though... only thing failry certain is my village got settled in the late 1700s.
legend goes a powerful landowner got his daughter wed, granted her some lands and as was custom then some men came and lifted her doli to take her to her to be inlaws for the wedding...
on the way there nature called so she demanded that she be let off to do what she had too, but as it was against tradition she was forbidden to do so repeatedly, eventually she got so annoyed she got out of the carraige or whatever it was and told the lot of them to bog off and she settled the lands her father gave her.
worrying about her security her father ordered his son (her brother) and his wife to go settle near her and look after her and we were the descendents of her brother and sister in law, but the village is named after her, which pbly explains a lot about the women in my family (joking).
could all just be old wives tales though... only thing failry certain is my village got settled in the late 1700s.
Last edited by ElRaja; 23rd March
2013 at 00:13.
Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army
during WWII
lols, i got the whole story when i went to the
village few years back....
legend goes a powerful landowner got his daughter wed, granted her some lands and as was custom then some men came and lifted her doli to take her to her to be inlaws for the wedding...
on the way there nature called so she demanded that she be let off to do what she had too, but as it was against tradition she was forbidden to do so repeatedly, eventually she got so annoyed she got out of the carraige or whatever it was and told the lot of them to bog off and she settled the lands her father gave her.
worrying about her security her father ordered his son (her brother) and his wife to go settle near her and look after her and we were the descendents of her brother and sister in law, but the village is named after her, which pbly explains a lot about the women in my family (joking).
could all just be old wives tales though... only thing certain is my ancestors were most likely sikh 400 or 500 years ago, and my village got settled in the late 1700s.
legend goes a powerful landowner got his daughter wed, granted her some lands and as was custom then some men came and lifted her doli to take her to her to be inlaws for the wedding...
on the way there nature called so she demanded that she be let off to do what she had too, but as it was against tradition she was forbidden to do so repeatedly, eventually she got so annoyed she got out of the carraige or whatever it was and told the lot of them to bog off and she settled the lands her father gave her.
worrying about her security her father ordered his son (her brother) and his wife to go settle near her and look after her and we were the descendents of her brother and sister in law, but the village is named after her, which pbly explains a lot about the women in my family (joking).
could all just be old wives tales though... only thing certain is my ancestors were most likely sikh 400 or 500 years ago, and my village got settled in the late 1700s.
Lol what a story .
My great grandad worked for the man who owned most of the village . He worked for him for about 40 years as a farm labourer . When he was about 60 years old he asked the landlord for a piece of land just big enough to build a small house on . The landowner said ok but he wanted a lot of money . Now this was back in the 70s and my grandad was here in the uk he went back to the village and gave the money but even then he refused to give the land . My grandma begged him and he ended up giving the land . That house for as long as I am alive will remain standing because to me it has sentimental value .
My great grandad worked for the man who owned most of the village . He worked for him for about 40 years as a farm labourer . When he was about 60 years old he asked the landlord for a piece of land just big enough to build a small house on . The landowner said ok but he wanted a lot of money . Now this was back in the 70s and my grandad was here in the uk he went back to the village and gave the money but even then he refused to give the land . My grandma begged him and he ended up giving the land . That house for as long as I am alive will remain standing because to me it has sentimental value .
A man who stands for nothing will
fall for anything.
Malcolm X
Malcolm X
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army
during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million ;
fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one
of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the
"backbone of the British Indian Army" (Lieutenant-General Sir George
MacMunn.)
Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?
http://defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm
An informative little clip:
Punjabi Muslims:
The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?
http://defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm
An informative little clip:
Punjabi Muslims:
The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan
Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
khudad khan (is a pashtun akher), but born in punjab like imran khan and ahmed shahzad, so if you want to claim him as your own then fair enough
mir dast khan
ali haider khan bangash
the three pashtun in history to recieve a victorias cross for bravery
just correcting what was in the op, dont mind
Last edited by Myrmidon; 23rd March
2013 at 01:13.
You do realize punjabis also have
"Khan" surname? Not as common as in KP ofcourse.
my great grandfather fought in both
first and second great war for British ..went to middle east, Burma, Italy
during expedition ..was honored by queen herself during a ceremony in Delhi in
1921 we still have that certificate with British coat of arms printed on it.
“I’m not God but if I were God, ¾ of
you
would be girls, and the rest would be pizza and
beer.”
would be girls, and the rest would be pizza and
beer.”
This is one of the first times in a
while that I've just enjoyed reading a thread and learning different stories
and experiences. Thankyou everyone for sharing, and I hope to read more.
I worry that it is not directly related, but feel inspired enough to discuss it anyway. I wish to visit Ypres at some point because my great uncle was killed there in WWI. He was very young. It is a tradition for every man of the family to go and pay tribute at Menin Gate and I now feel ready to go and do it myself. There are 54,406 casualties honoured at this memorial alone, and that is only people who were identified! The scale of death and loss thus becomes incalculable.
Ultimately, all of these people we are discussing on an Internet forum fought and died so we could have the privilege of living as we do now. It's incredibly humbling. Personally the above is the only military history I am aware of in my family; my grandparents were all evacuated as children during the Second World War, so they all have different kinds of stories to tell.
I worry that it is not directly related, but feel inspired enough to discuss it anyway. I wish to visit Ypres at some point because my great uncle was killed there in WWI. He was very young. It is a tradition for every man of the family to go and pay tribute at Menin Gate and I now feel ready to go and do it myself. There are 54,406 casualties honoured at this memorial alone, and that is only people who were identified! The scale of death and loss thus becomes incalculable.
Ultimately, all of these people we are discussing on an Internet forum fought and died so we could have the privilege of living as we do now. It's incredibly humbling. Personally the above is the only military history I am aware of in my family; my grandparents were all evacuated as children during the Second World War, so they all have different kinds of stories to tell.
(British) Indians who received Victoria Cross
in WWII.
HTML Code:
Abdul
Hafiz 9th Jat Infantry
Ali
Haidar 13th Frontier Force Rifles
Bhandari
Ram Garhwal Rifles
Chhelu
Ram 6th Rajputana Rifles
Fazal
Din 10th Baluch Regiment
Gian
Singh 15th Punjab Regiment
Kamal
Ram 8th Punjab Regiment
Karamjeet
Judge 4/15th Punjab Regiment
Namdeo
Jadav 5th Maratha Light Infantry
Nand
Singh 1/11th Garhwal
Rifles
Parkash
Singh 8th Punjab Regiment
Prakash
Singh 13th Frontier Force Rifles
Premindra
Bhagat Corps of Indian Engineers
Ram
Singh Garhwal Rifles
Richhpal
Ram 6th Rajputana Rifles
Sher
Shah 16th Punjab Regiment
Umrao
Singh Royal Indian
Artillery
Yeshwant
Ghadge Maratha Light Infantry
Well you've answered your own question. In
Britain, no one is aware that the British army had any foreign soldiers, never
mind Pakistanis who died for the cause. Why would Punjabis be proud of it when
their host nation isn't?
It's quite shocking actually that
for a public generally quite proud of its armed forces, most British people
aren't aware that in the past, and now, we have been and are joined by many
courageous men and women from around the world.
I will say though that, aside from the general public, Her Majesty's government itself has great respect for our military history - even today, anybody from Britain, Ireland or much of the Commonwealth can join the British Army, almost as a testament to the unity through diversity which has protected us in the past, and continues to keep us safe. This upholds our open-minded values and mirrors our accepting multicultural society very well.
I will say though that, aside from the general public, Her Majesty's government itself has great respect for our military history - even today, anybody from Britain, Ireland or much of the Commonwealth can join the British Army, almost as a testament to the unity through diversity which has protected us in the past, and continues to keep us safe. This upholds our open-minded values and mirrors our accepting multicultural society very well.
I don't think they care unless they want to brag "Potohar shera na ilhaqa"
my cousin grandfather served in
British army in WW2 ..he was part of brit army which captured Egypt from
Italians
“I’m not God but if I were God, ¾ of
you
would be girls, and the rest would be pizza and
beer.”
would be girls, and the rest would be pizza and
beer.”
wonder what our grandkids will have
to say about us.
my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.
what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.
what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
It's quite shocking actually that for a public
generally quite proud of its armed forces, most British people aren't aware
that in the past, and now, we have been and are joined by many courageous men
and women from around the world.
I will say though that, aside from the general public, Her Majesty's government itself has great respect for our military history - even today, anybody from Britain, Ireland or much of the Commonwealth can join the British Army, almost as a testament to the unity through diversity which has protected us in the past, and continues to keep us safe. This upholds our open-minded values and mirrors our accepting multicultural society very well.
I will say though that, aside from the general public, Her Majesty's government itself has great respect for our military history - even today, anybody from Britain, Ireland or much of the Commonwealth can join the British Army, almost as a testament to the unity through diversity which has protected us in the past, and continues to keep us safe. This upholds our open-minded values and mirrors our accepting multicultural society very well.
Or it may also be due to not many
people joining the british army to fill up the required numbers?
Or it may also be due to not many people joining
the british army to fill up the required numbers?
Not at all, the Army is constantly
being downsized.
wonder what our grandkids will have to say about
us.
my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.
what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.
what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
How about our grand fathers died so
we can troll? We are living in golden age right now.
My dad fought for the British in Burma along with my Uncle and
many others from our village. After the War he joined the Pakistani army(he was
court-martialed for doing his duty by a very prominent General) and then he
came to England in 1961.
(British) Indians who received Victoria Cross in WWII.
lol ali haider bangash has never
classified himself as an indian
also incidenlty, is that the sher shah from near enough mianwali? of the awan tribe?
also incidenlty, is that the sher shah from near enough mianwali? of the awan tribe?
Last edited by Myrmidon; 23rd March
2013 at 15:17.
How about our grand fathers died so we can
troll? We are living in golden age right now.
we are living in the most boring
age..nothing is exciting about this age.. you get some extra leg space in a
flight, and that becomes so exciting that you put it on fb.. the highlight of
your day becomes some troll war on a forum.. your battles are online, laptops
are your trenches and usernames are your camouflage.. you are not man enough to
deal with your own problems and come online to ask equally boring strangers
about how to deal with compulsive shopping. yeah, golden age right.
You do realize punjabis also have
"Khan" surname? Not as common as in KP ofcourse.
im not ignorant, i know quite alot
about pashtuns who have won the VC, was just correcting akher
Japanese army was very cruel to the british
pows. Japanese PoWs in my family did not live long after the war.
An old family friend of ours was
captured by the Japanese who pitied him and the others captured for fighting
for white men and treated them fairly decently. I guess he was lucky.
To be honest I dont feel much pride
for those Pakistani or Indian soldiers. They were fighting for the freedom of
others but had no freedom of their own.
I don't condemn them but I guess my overriding feeling is of sympathy for all that they had to do and see for their oppressors war.
I don't condemn them but I guess my overriding feeling is of sympathy for all that they had to do and see for their oppressors war.
im not ignorant, i know quite alot about
pashtuns who have won the VC, was just correcting akher
At the end of the day he was
Pakistani, thats the important part.
there was no pakistan during that
time dude
There was always a pakistan..right
from the ancient baluchitherium dinosaur to the 7 foot tall porus to shahid afridi.
There was always a pakistan..right from the
ancient baluchitherium dinosaur to the 7 foot tall porus to shahid afridi.
Well said
There was always a pakistan..right from the
ancient baluchitherium dinosaur to the 7 foot tall porus to shahid afridi.
Reminds me of Ancient Macedonia and
it's famous Kings Phillip and Alexander claimed by ....
wonder what our grandkids will have to say about
us.
my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.
what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.
what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
your age group peers in Syria, Iraq,
Afghanistan & Palestine wont have to worry like you . They will have a
completely different story to tell, to their grandchildren
easy to relay views on a forum, and being all anonymous. But none of us can be worthy of being chivalrous.
easy to relay views on a forum, and being all anonymous. But none of us can be worthy of being chivalrous.
Last edited by kamz; 23rd March 2013
at 15:55.
An old family friend of ours was captured by the
Japanese who pitied him and the others captured for fighting for white men and
treated them fairly decently. I guess he was lucky.
To be honest I dont feel much pride for those
Pakistani or Indian soldiers. They were fighting for the freedom of others but
had no freedom of their own.
I don't condemn them but I guess my overriding feeling is of sympathy for all that they had to do and see for their oppressors war.
I don't condemn them but I guess my overriding feeling is of sympathy for all that they had to do and see for their oppressors war.
How much have you looked into WWII
history so far?
How much have you looked into WWII history so
far?
Enough to wonder why poor guys from
India were fighting for Britain who didnt give a damn about them.
i share the views of DV, but didn't
want to express it here. The British Indian soldiers fought because being a
part of the british army was a prestigious position to hold..you became a part
of the rulers..they had accepted the subservient role under a benign ruler who
gave them the respect in society (martial race theory) and they gave their
lives in return.
They were part of the British empire,
they had all rights if not duties to serve it, and in fact it seems that these
Punjabi Muslims at least preferred to "serve" them than some others,
as soon after they asked for a new country, so they didn't "hate"
them that much, probably why so many of them are found in the UK nowadays I
guess.
khudad khan (is a pashtun akher), but born in
punjab like imran khan and ahmed shahzad, so if you want to claim him as your
own then fair enough
mir dast khan
ali haider khan bangash
the three pashtun in history to recieve a victorias cross for bravery
just correcting what was in the op, dont mind
mir dast khan
ali haider khan bangash
the three pashtun in history to recieve a victorias cross for bravery
just correcting what was in the op, dont mind
Bro.
First of all I said that it concerned a lot of ethnicities of today's Pakistan, not only Punjabis.
Punjabis, Pashtuns, Baloch and even Sindhis, and in fact many of the Sikhs who then went to today's India were from today's Pakistan at the time when they chose the British Indian Army.
BUT I precised that Punjabi Muslims were special in the sense that they were the most numerous and called the "backbone" of the said Army.
Now, about Khudadad Khan, he might have been Pashtun but in British papers he was born in Punjab and probably classified as such but even if that's not the case, that doesn't change what I said in OP : a lot of the soldiers were from today's Pakistan AND within THAT group, the majority were Punjabi Muslims.
That thread was for ALL British Pakistanis.
First of all I said that it concerned a lot of ethnicities of today's Pakistan, not only Punjabis.
Punjabis, Pashtuns, Baloch and even Sindhis, and in fact many of the Sikhs who then went to today's India were from today's Pakistan at the time when they chose the British Indian Army.
BUT I precised that Punjabi Muslims were special in the sense that they were the most numerous and called the "backbone" of the said Army.
Now, about Khudadad Khan, he might have been Pashtun but in British papers he was born in Punjab and probably classified as such but even if that's not the case, that doesn't change what I said in OP : a lot of the soldiers were from today's Pakistan AND within THAT group, the majority were Punjabi Muslims.
That thread was for ALL British Pakistanis.
Prakash Singh 13th Frontier Force
Rifles
He was from our clan from my mother's side.
He was from our clan from my mother's side.
Last edited by Eagle_Eye; 23rd March
2013 at 16:24.
One of the reasons that Punjabi
muslims were valued by the British was because of their perceived bravery and
on the other side of the coin-in the case of my Dad and others in our village,
the land wasn`t fertile enough( lack of rainfall in the pothowar and no rivers)
to feed the families so they had to find another source of income.
They were part of the British empire, they had
all rights if not duties to serve it, and in fact it seems that these Punjabi
Muslims at least preferred to "serve" them than some others, as soon
after they asked for a new country, so they didn't "hate" them that
much, probably why so many of them are found in the UK nowadays I guess.
Sure, they had the forced duty to
serve it. Members of my own family did too and as I said its not something I
condemn but given the atrocities that the British committed its not something
that I'm totally proud of. I commend their bravery but not their cause.
Enough to wonder why poor guys from India were
fighting for Britain who didnt give a damn about them.
I just assumed from your statements
that you were aware of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere post-1940 and
also the principle of hakkō ichiu, which together suggest that Imperial Japan
after conquering all of East Asia and isolating Australia would then have
looked to press its interests further west; the Japanese Empire at its peak
ruled territories and maintained puppet governments on the doorstep of the
Indian subcontinent. Historians generally feel that Japan would have become a
dominant pan-Asian imperial power had the war panned out differently (you would
also presumably see that as an oppressive outcome). So there are lots of
reasons why South Asians may have fought on the Allied side.
i share the views of DV, but didn't want to express it here. The British Indian soldiers fought because being
a part of the british army was a prestigious position to hold..you became a
part of the rulers..they had accepted the subservient role under a benign ruler
who gave them the respect in society (martial race theory) and they gave their
lives in return.
Its something I dont like expressing
either. I usually inform British people of the sacrifices made by Indians
during the empire when they get carried away with the way their grandparents
etc died for them to be free but I dont feel particularly proud about it.
Its strange as I'm British and loyal to Britain but can't identify with my ancestors who were 'loyal' to the British empire of that time. I identify more with the INA tbh.
Again just to point out not a condemnation of anybody who died in the British Indian army, I totally respect and admire them.
Its strange as I'm British and loyal to Britain but can't identify with my ancestors who were 'loyal' to the British empire of that time. I identify more with the INA tbh.
Again just to point out not a condemnation of anybody who died in the British Indian army, I totally respect and admire them.
Sure, they had the forced duty to serve it.
Members of my own family did too and as I said its not something I condemn but
given the atrocities that the British committed its not something that I'm
totally proud of. I commend their bravery but not their cause.
In recent and contemporary history i
think you will fail to find a cause to go to war more noble than to defeat
imperial japan imo.
I just assumed from your statements that you
were aware of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere post-1940 and also the
principle of hakkō ichiu, which together suggest that Imperial Japan after
conquering all of East Asia and isolating Australia would then have looked to
press its interests further west; the Japanese Empire at its peak ruled
territories and maintained puppet governments on the doorstep of the Indian
subcontinent. Historians generally feel that Japan would have become a dominant
pan-Asian imperial power had the war panned out differently (you would also
presumably see that as an oppressive outcome). So there are lots of reasons why
South Asians may have fought on the Allied side.
What difference would it have made
to British Indians? A new master thats all. They were second class citizens and
not able to choose their own destiny under the British.
Last edited by DeadlyVenom; 23rd
March 2013 at 16:38.
In recent and contemporary history i think you
will fail to find a cause to go to war more noble than to defeat imperial japan imo.
They were already living under a
brutal empire. Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial
Japanese on behalf of the Imperial British.
What difference would it have made to British
Indians? A new master thats all. They were second class citizens and not able
to choose their own destiny under the British.
I'm not sure what point you're
trying to make. Would you have preferred an alternative history where we were
all (not just Asian people) ruled under the Fourth Reich or the Empire of
Japan? Because these were the aggressors, the forces which were defeated in the
Second World War by the Allies, Commonwealth et al.
They were already living under a brutal empire.
Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on
behalf of the Imperial British.
i can only talk about what ive heard
from my family members, and there was nothing brutal about living under the
british for them. you have to remember the indian subcontinent was a pastiche
of semi autonomous, vassal and directly ruled states therefore the treatment of
citizens varied from area to area.
the areas from which the british empire recruited soldiers were usually allowed to get on with there life.
the areas from which the british empire recruited soldiers were usually allowed to get on with there life.
They were already living under a brutal empire.
Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on
behalf of the Imperial British.
the Empire of Japan killed around 10
million East Asian civilians between 1936 and 1945, and millions more in its
existence before that, presumably you knew all of this as well.
They were already living under a brutal empire.
Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on
behalf of the Imperial British.
Well, that's where I don't agree, as
it actually wasn't.
How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not that cruel to today's Pakistanis.
Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.
In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.
You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not that cruel to today's Pakistanis.
Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.
In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.
You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
They were already living under a brutal empire.
Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on
behalf of the Imperial British.
You are making a comparison that is
not borne out of any real historical fact here.
Japan were far, far more brutal than the British Empire - who were a loathsome empire that exploited many a population - there's that famous phrase, 'the sun never sets on the British Empire, because God doesn't trust the British in the dark'. The British Empire was far from that moralising force that the likes of Kipling depict it to be. Don't get me started on the morally bankrupt British Empire.
However your statement that they would be living under another brutal empire 'that's all' is ludicrous. Japan's campaign of colonisation between the late 19th century and until the end of the Second World War was one of the worst episodes in history. Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.
Japan were far, far more brutal than the British Empire - who were a loathsome empire that exploited many a population - there's that famous phrase, 'the sun never sets on the British Empire, because God doesn't trust the British in the dark'. The British Empire was far from that moralising force that the likes of Kipling depict it to be. Don't get me started on the morally bankrupt British Empire.
However your statement that they would be living under another brutal empire 'that's all' is ludicrous. Japan's campaign of colonisation between the late 19th century and until the end of the Second World War was one of the worst episodes in history. Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.
The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:
"It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis
aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised.
The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians (i.e. Soviet
citizens); the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays,
Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them
ethnic Chinese.
Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as (forced) prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not the Soviet Union) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; (by comparison) the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%."
Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as (forced) prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not the Soviet Union) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; (by comparison) the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%."
Japan carried out human
experimentation on civilians and POWs, not to mention the use of 'comfort
women'.
This martial race idea is nonsense, there was a reason why people in the Indian sub-continent fought against the Japanese and it certainly wasn't out of their loyalty and affection for the British, it was to defeat one of the most savage entities in history.
This martial race idea is nonsense, there was a reason why people in the Indian sub-continent fought against the Japanese and it certainly wasn't out of their loyalty and affection for the British, it was to defeat one of the most savage entities in history.
Last edited by Markhor; 23rd March
2013 at 16:52.
Well, that's where I don't agree, as it actually
wasn't.
How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not that cruel to today's Pakistanis.
Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.
In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.
You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not that cruel to today's Pakistanis.
Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.
In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.
You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
very well said, id also like to add
the british empire in india as found under the east india company was a
business venture, and for the punjabis of modern day pakistan colonisation by
the british was also seen almost as a business venture, in so much as they
viewed the brits as providing an administrative structure which they paid for
by there tax money.
that is why they so readily accepted all british poltical and military institutions. they were militarily dominated by the brits, so they looked to make the most of the situation.
that is why they so readily accepted all british poltical and military institutions. they were militarily dominated by the brits, so they looked to make the most of the situation.
Last edited by ElRaja; 23rd March
2013 at 16:55.
i can only talk about what ive heard from my
family members, and there was nothing brutal about living under the british for
them. you have to remember the indian subcontinent was a pastiche of semi
autonomous, vassal and directly ruled states therefore the treatment of
citizens varied from area to area.
the areas from which the british empire recruited soldiers were usually allowed to get on with there life.
the areas from which the british empire recruited soldiers were usually allowed to get on with there life.
It was an occupation. Those people
who asked for rights were put down brutally.
the Empire of Japan killed around 10 million
East Asian civilians between 1936 and 1945, and millions more in its existence
before that, presumably you knew all of this as well.
In his book Late Victorian
Holocausts, published in 2001, Mike Davis tells the story of famines that
killed between 12 and 29 million Indians. These people were, he demonstrates,
murdered by British state policy. When an El Niño drought destituted the farmers
of the Deccan plateau in 1876 there was a net surplus of rice and wheat in
India. But the viceroy, Lord Lytton, insisted that nothing should prevent its
export to England. In 1877 and 1878, at the height of the famine, grain
merchants exported a record 6.4m hundredweight of wheat. As the peasants began
to starve, officials were ordered “to discourage relief works in every possible
way”. The Anti-Charitable Contributions Act of 1877 prohibited “at the pain of
imprisonment private relief donations that potentially interfered with the
market fixing of grain prices”. The only relief permitted in most districts was
hard labour, from which anyone in an advanced state of starvation was turned
away. In the labour camps, the workers were given less food than inmates of
Buchenwald. In 1877, monthly mortality in the camps equated to an annual death
rate of 94%.
As millions died, the imperial government launched “a militarised campaign to collect the tax arrears accumulated during the drought”. The money, which ruined those who might otherwise have survived the famine, was used by Lytton to fund his war in Afghanistan. Even in places that had produced a crop surplus, the government’s export policies, like Stalin’s in Ukraine, manufactured hunger. In the north-western provinces, Oud and the Punjab, which had brought in record harvests in the preceeding three years, at least 1.25m died.
From Late Victorian Holocausts.
As millions died, the imperial government launched “a militarised campaign to collect the tax arrears accumulated during the drought”. The money, which ruined those who might otherwise have survived the famine, was used by Lytton to fund his war in Afghanistan. Even in places that had produced a crop surplus, the government’s export policies, like Stalin’s in Ukraine, manufactured hunger. In the north-western provinces, Oud and the Punjab, which had brought in record harvests in the preceeding three years, at least 1.25m died.
From Late Victorian Holocausts.
How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not that cruel to today's Pakistanis.
Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.
In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.
You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
Your post is not incorrect. However
again I can only see irony in occupied people fighting for the freedom of their
occupiers. During world war 2 the forces of democracy threw Nehru into prison
for a civil protest
Only out of fear of the Japanese did Britain make some concessions to Indians. So I guess for that I am strangely thankful to Japan.
Only out of fear of the Japanese did Britain make some concessions to Indians. So I guess for that I am strangely thankful to Japan.
It was an occupation. Those people who asked for
rights were put down brutally.
i dont mean to sound flippant of the
people who died at the hands of the british in many parts of the empire, but
talking specifically of that time and that place, i.e. pothwar region of modern
day pak, where my family are from, the right to keeping your own land and
fairly comprehensive religious and cultural freedom was more human rights than
most people had.
there was no idea of a political agitation for the sake of others who may be suffering in other parts of the empire. it was a good life, whether it was the sikhs, mughals, or brits what difference would it make to a farmer as long as they are given the right to their property.
it may sound selfish but thats hw it was.
there was no idea of a political agitation for the sake of others who may be suffering in other parts of the empire. it was a good life, whether it was the sikhs, mughals, or brits what difference would it make to a farmer as long as they are given the right to their property.
it may sound selfish but thats hw it was.
72. Taking the side of
the british was the way of social mobility for some communities..and british
exploited that using their martial race theory.. tell a pathan for example,
that he is the bravest of all people and pat his back, and he is taken for a
ride and gives you his unquestioning loyalty. this was the case for many
soldiers from different communities..subservient roles to a benign master.
73.
Taking the side of the british was the way of
social mobility for some communities..and british exploited that using their
martial race theory.. tell a pathan for example, that he is the bravest of all people
and pat his back, and he is taken for a ride and gives you his unquestioning
loyalty. this was the case for
many soldiers from different communities..subservient roles to a benign master.
what a dumb thing to say, the brits chose to play the martial
race card on the pathans because fighting with them wasnt worth the effort. the
brits were martially superior and the pathans knew this, a war with the pathans
would have been a waste of time, money and lives on both sides. if you can
diplomatically come to an arrangement, why not?
any other ethnic group in british india would have done much the same like many a "royal prince" did all over india to appease the empire. no doubt flattered by the british appreciation of their majesty.
any other ethnic group in british india would have done much the same like many a "royal prince" did all over india to appease the empire. no doubt flattered by the british appreciation of their majesty.
Last edited by ElRaja; 23rd March 2013 at 17:20.
74.
]i dont mean to sound flippant of the people who
died at the hands of the british in many parts of the empire, but talking
specifically of that time and that place, i.e. pothwar region of modern day
pak, where my family are from, the right to keeping your own land and fairly
comprehensive religious and cultural freedom was more human rights than most
people had.[/B]
there was no idea of a political agitation for the sake of others who may be suffering in other parts of the empire. it was a good life, whether it was the sikhs, mughals, or brits what difference would it make to a farmer as long as they are given the right to their property.
it may sound selfish but thats hw it was.
there was no idea of a political agitation for the sake of others who may be suffering in other parts of the empire. it was a good life, whether it was the sikhs, mughals, or brits what difference would it make to a farmer as long as they are given the right to their property.
it may sound selfish but thats hw it was.
Can you go into detail? Against what people are you comparing
them?
75. Oh just learned
that BBC news presenter Mishal Husain's grandfather, Major General Syed Shahid
Hamid , was not only in the British Indian Army, but quite an important
individiual in Pakistan's history too
SYED SHAHID HAMID was one of the most important
military and political figures in the early years of Pakistan. As private
secretary to Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck, the last Commander- in-Chief
of the British-Indian army before India was partitioned in 1947, Shahid Hamid
was an inside player in the crucial months during partition - a period which he
later researched and on which he wrote several books.
Shahid Hamid was a man of wide interests: a soldier, writer, explorer, sportsman, educationalist and a devout Muslim
...
Shahid Hamid opted for Pakistan and, as a Lieutenant-Colonel in 1948, he set up the now famous Inter Services Intelligence from a small office in Karachi. The ISI is Pakistan's premier intelligence agency and virtually ran the Afghan war against the Soviet invaders. In 1951, at the age of 41, he became the youngest general in the Pakistan army - a record that is still unbeaten. During the 1958 martial law imposed by General Ayub Khan, Shahid Hamid was the adjutant-general of the army. Retiring in 1964, he went into business but was summoned back to public life in 1978 by President Zia ul-Haq, under whom he served as a federal cabinet minister for three years.
Shahid Hamid was a man of wide interests: a soldier, writer, explorer, sportsman, educationalist and a devout Muslim
...
Shahid Hamid opted for Pakistan and, as a Lieutenant-Colonel in 1948, he set up the now famous Inter Services Intelligence from a small office in Karachi. The ISI is Pakistan's premier intelligence agency and virtually ran the Afghan war against the Soviet invaders. In 1951, at the age of 41, he became the youngest general in the Pakistan army - a record that is still unbeaten. During the 1958 martial law imposed by General Ayub Khan, Shahid Hamid was the adjutant-general of the army. Retiring in 1964, he went into business but was summoned back to public life in 1978 by President Zia ul-Haq, under whom he served as a federal cabinet minister for three years.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...d-1497723.html
Considering that boxer Amir Khan's family are Rajputs from Rawalpindi, I'm *SURE* he had some relatives there too.
Considering that boxer Amir Khan's family are Rajputs from Rawalpindi, I'm *SURE* he had some relatives there too.
Last edited by akheR; 23rd March 2013 at 17:21.
76.
The preparations for British withdrawal from India had already
begun before World War II started, and the INA or the movements arising out of
it achieved nothing other than to collaborate with a Japanese Empire that was
allied to one of the most horrific ideologies in Nazi Germany. The will to
relinquish the Raj existed already.
What difference would it have made to British
Indians? A new master thats all. They were second class citizens and not able
to choose their own destiny under the British.
I don't think we should get into an argument of which empire was
worse as we risk reducing World War Two to 'good guy, bad guy', which it was
not. You have to look at the context of the situation. What do you think would
have happened if the Indian SC came under Japanese rule ? The Japanese had a
mantra of 'Kill all, rape all, loot all' - look at the treatment of the Chinese
- the British were brutal but nothing on the scale of the Chinese occupation by
Japan.
Japan's racial prejudices would have meant that the Indians of the sub-continent will have been viewed as inferior and would also have been subject to harsh rule too.
In six weeks alone, the Japanese killed 250,000 in Nanking, 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly. The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them.
On 19 December 1937, Reverend James M. McCallum wrote in his diary:
Japan's racial prejudices would have meant that the Indians of the sub-continent will have been viewed as inferior and would also have been subject to harsh rule too.
In six weeks alone, the Japanese killed 250,000 in Nanking, 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly. The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them.
On 19 December 1937, Reverend James M. McCallum wrote in his diary:
I know not where to end. Never I have heard or
read such brutality. Rape! Rape! Rape! We estimate at least 1,000 cases a
night, and many by day. In case of resistance or anything that seems like
disapproval, there is a bayonet stab or a bullet ... People are hysterical ...
Women are being carried off every morning, afternoon and evening. The whole
Japanese army seems to be free to go and come as it pleases, and to do whatever
it pleases.
Japan had no interest in bringing about self-determination for
Indians, only to gain strategic access to the Indian Ocean. Japan also believed
in the same Nazi ideology of racial supremacy - they believed the Yamato race
was pure and that they had a divine right to enslave other races. Indeed Gandhi
made your point about the hypocrisy of the British, but again, ask the Chinese
what they think of the Japanese occupation and they'll testify it was one of
the most darkest periods in their history.
Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. The Japanese also slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese.
Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. The Japanese also slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese.
Last edited by Markhor; 23rd March 2013 at 17:23.
77.
Prakash Singh 13th Frontier Force Rifles
He was from our clan from my mother's side.
He was from our clan from my mother's side.
How's that possible. Or did moms side convert to Islam ?
what a dumb thing to say, the brits chose to
play the martial race card on the pathans because fighting with them wasnt
worth the effort. the brits were martially superior no doubt, but a war with
the pathans would have been a waste of time, money and lives if you can
diplomatically bring them into the structure.
any other ethnic group in British india would have done much the same like many a "royal prince" did all over india to appease the empire. no doubt flattered by the British appreciation of their majesty.
any other ethnic group in British india would have done much the same like many a "royal prince" did all over india to appease the empire. no doubt flattered by the British appreciation of their majesty.
the brits could have thrashed anyone, not because they were
braver..but because they had the best arms in the world..but you are right, they
didnt want to waste time fighting..When the same tribes could be won over by
patronizing them.. There was a reason they disbanded the bengal regiment,
because it was where the 1857 rebellion began after that the brits played their
card well and started patronizing groups that were loyal to them. i wouldn’t be
proud of something like that.
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