23:42
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1.   Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army during WWII
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million (25,00,000) ; fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the "backbone of the British Indian Army" (Lieutenant-General Sir George MacMunn.) 

Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?

 

...On the eve of World War II almost 34,000 Punjabi Muslims were in the army (29 per cent) and during World War-II over 380,000 joined (about 14% of the total). No other class came close to these figures: Sikhs: 116,000, Gurkhas: 109,000, Muslims of other classes from UP, Deccan, Madras, Bengal, NWFP, etc 274,000, were recruited during 1939-1945. Muslims as a whole constituted a quarter of the Indian Army as of 1947....

Almost 70 per cent of the wartime recruitment was from what became Pakistan
...
An informative little clip:


Punjabi Muslims:

The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan

 
 
On 31st October, 1914, at Hollebeke, Belgium, the British Officer in charge of the detachment having been wounded, and the other gun put out of action by a shell, Sepoy Khudadad, though himself wounded, remained working his gun until all the other five men of the gun detachment had been killed.

Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
2.      22nd March 2013, 21:56#2

 Originlly Posted by akheR 
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million ; fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the "backbone of the British Indian Army" (Lieutenant-General Sir George MacMunn.) 

Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?



http://defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm


Punjabi Muslims:

The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan

Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
How many of them Punjabis are actually real Punjabis and not Potoharis/Mirpuri's/Pathan's and Hindko's from Attock etc?
3.      22nd March 2013, 21:59#3
The great majority was from Rawalpindi (followed by Jhelum but also areas of NWFP and Balochistan), isn't that the Potohar ? And how saying "Punjabis" contradicts the fact that they were "Potoharis" ? Potoharis = sub group of Punjabis, as far as I know (please don't quote the whole post either).
4.      22nd March 2013, 22:02#4


Forgotton Soldiers: Soldiers from Pakistan

Contributed by Yaser khalid
People in story:Muhammad Khan
Location of story:Turkey
Background to story:Army
Article ID: A2054387
Contributed on: 17 November 2003


Although people all over the world faced the miseries of World wars but I have two samll but interesting incidents which will reflect the sufferings of people in Pakistan.
1. This story is of a young lady who later became my grandmother. She was engaged to a soldier in then British army (now Pakistan army). His name was Muhammad Khan. Both sides were preparing for marriage when WW-11 started and he was sent to some front near Turkey. And then moved to some other front and then to other front. After couple of years, he stopped writting letters and there was no news about him. Here every body specially the young lady was waiting for her bride groom. But he never turned up. The family members convinced the lady that he must be dead in some war. After many years of waiting for a letter or any news in desperation, convinced her the soldier must be killed some where. Half heartedly the lady agreed to marry some one else(my grand father).
After couple of months a day was agreed and on that day when ceremony finished and all the guests were having their meal, a new guest came, he was the lost soldier.
He begged to the lady`s relative, but it was too late, the ceremony had already taken place. It was a real movie scene. The soldier became injured during action and then was taken prisoner by the Germans and remain there for this time, so could not communicate.
This is just a story of a single girl, we have places in Pakistan where hundreds of homes have a similar story. someone brother , someone son is missing and still don`t know what happened to them.
2. This story is of my uncle who was a Colonel in Pakistan army and now is retired. His father was a soldier in British Army and when my uncle was just a kid, his father was sent to a front on WW-11. After couple of years, there was no news about him, or no letter from him.
They tried there best to trace him but all in vain.
This kid (my uncle), grew young and got commission in Pakistan Army. Year after year, he tried to get some information, but all in vain. He went to the rank of Major and was posted to some far area/border of Pakistan, when some stranger came to meet him. He was a very old man. He told him that he was from his father`s company/unit. They both were fighting against German/Turkish forces in Turkey when his father was killed and all his fellow soldiers burried him there. He told him that his grave is still in that battle ground in Turkey.
My uncle went to that battle ground, and there ware many unnamed graves of the soldiers from sub-continent.
He had no other option to leave flowers there and come back.

Quote Originally Posted by mani1 View Post
How many of them Punjabis are actualy real Punjabis and not Potoharis/Mirpuri's/Pathan's and Hindko's from Attock etc?
5.      22nd March 2013, 22:04#5
Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
The great majority was from Rawalpindi (followed by Jhelum but also areas of NWFP and Balochistan), isn't that the Potohar ? And how saying "Punjabis" contradicts the fact that they were "Potoharis" ? Potoharis = sub group of Punjabis, as far as I know (please don't quote the whole post either).
Potoharis are not Punjabis Ranjit Singh invented Punjabi it is not a real ethnicity like Pathan Balochi sindi etc.

What were Potoharis before Ranjit Singh when the Gakkhars ruled Potohar?
Are non pashtun Hindkos such as Yasir Hameed Punjabis or how about the non Pashtun Pahari speakers? Their language is a lot closer to Punjabi that Potohari.
6.      22nd March 2013, 22:05#6
so in other words Pakistani muslims were fighting to free the Jews from Nazi's crimes. So many times we have helped them and yet we are still the bad ones, huh?


 
Sachnistan and Afridinistan, the most insecure fan ever.
7.      22nd March 2013, 22:06#7
mani1 oh man I can already sense where the thread is heading now, please forget these linguistic mathematics and keep in mind that they were all from Pakistan, period. 
Thanks.
8.      22nd March 2013, 22:09#8
I live in the UK the vast majority of the Pakistani contingent in the British Indian Army was from Gujar Khan,Mirpur,Jhelum,Chakwal and Attock, Hence why these groups are in the majority in the UK.
9.      22nd March 2013, 22:13#9
Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army during WWII
I had a racist guy in my class at school during our history lesson we got talking about the WW1 and 2 . Anyway he went on to say that he didn't mind the polish here because they were allies during the wars . I got quite ****** and said what about the Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis that fought and died . His face went red as the whole class started to listen and he had to eat his own words . Anyway the point I was trying to make is not a lot of people know that Pakistanis or even South east Asians fought in the wars .Sorry for going off topic .


 
A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

Malcolm X
10.    22nd March 2013, 22:14#10

Quote Originally Posted by mani1 View Post
I live in the UK the vast majority of the Pakistani contingent in the British Indian Army was from Gujar Khan,Mirpur,Jhelum,Chakwal and Attock, Hence why these groups are in the majority in the UK.
Yes, those are the main areas.

But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
11.    22nd March 2013, 22:18#11

Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
Yes, those are the main areas.

But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
I don't think they care unless they want to brag "Potohar shera na ilhaqa"
12.    22nd March 2013, 22:19#12

Quote Originally Posted by mani1 View Post
I don't think they care unless they want to brag "Potohar shera na ilhaqa"
13.    22nd March 2013, 22:33#13
My grandfather fought against the Japanese in Burma in the Second World War. Japan had committed horrific crimes against the Chinese, the Rape of Nanking being one example and had actually inflicted a severe defeat on the British in Singapore. It was the British Empire's last hurrah but it must have been extraordinary to see ordinary officers from the Commonwealth and from the developing world, fighting side by side with the white aristocratic class that ruled over them in London.

14.    22nd March 2013, 22:34#14
Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million ; fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the "backbone of the British Indian Army"

Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
Well you've answered your own question. In Britain, no one is aware that the British army had any foreign soldiers, never mind Pakistanis who died for the cause. Why would Punjabis be proud of it when their host nation isn't?
15.    22nd March 2013, 22:36#15

Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
Yes, those are the main areas.

But do they themselves know that, are they themselves aware of that fact ?
Yes they do. They were invited to come the uk in the 50s and 60s., that is how my father came to the UK. My mother still receives british war pension, its very meagre amount nothing to shout about.

People who fought in ww2 in my family

Father - burma
 
Uncle - north africa
Maternal Grandfather's brother 1
 
Maternal Grandfather's brother 2 - japanese pisoner of war
Many more relatives from both mother and father's side

Prior to that both my paternal and maternal grandfathers were in british army. Many more people i can mention but you get the idea.

After losing power to ranjit singh back in early part of 19th century, the rajputs of the area realised oh **** better do something worthwhile to earn a living, but their ego would not let them work in fields like their peasants.... jatts, arains etc.. Instead, they would prefer to join the army as it was considered a noble profession.
Last edited by Eagle_Eye; 22nd March 2013 at 22:40.
16.    22nd March 2013, 22:51#16
nice topic akher bro

my paternal grandfather died fighting the japanese. no one from my family knew much about what happened as the only person to return back to our village went kind of crazy and claimed my paternal grand father was still alive, had lost his memory and went awol.

as it happens i grew up with tales of how my paternal grandfather may still be alive in japan or something until i was trying to google map my village and after putting in its name got lead to a war memorial website.

checked it out and there it was, apparently in singapore the last remnant of my paternal grand father is his name etched into a war memorial. he fought in the punjab 3/16 and after much research i managed to find out exactly how he died, most likely on the malaysia thai border in operation krohcol.

took about 65 years but my dad eventually found out what happened to his dad, and knowing now what he do of how the japanese treated prisoners, it was pbly for the best.

disclaimer: apparently im not really punjabi since im pothwari, learn something new everyday
 
17.    22nd March 2013, 22:52#17
Both of My grandfathers fighted for english army.My (DADA)N got injured in the plane by bulled so had to come back,He was in army in first world war aswell.
He also fought the kashmir war and got some medal aswell,and also 40 canal worth land.
My (nana) ship has a inside man of japan as captain,and they surrendered to japan.he was jailed there for 10 years.


 
18.    22nd March 2013, 22:54#18
and I am kashmiri,japenese gave people who were there prisoners compensations 2 3 years back but my Nana had already died by that time,6 7 years back.


 
19.    22nd March 2013, 22:59#19
Japanese army was very cruel to the british pows. Japanese PoWs in my family did not live long after the war.
20.    22nd March 2013, 23:26#20
Inspiring stories really thanks for sharing.
21.    22nd March 2013, 23:38#21

Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
Japanese army was very cruel to the british pows. Japanese PoWs in my family did not live long after the war.
Japan rather bluntly called their policy "Kill all, rape all, loot all". There are stories of how Chinese POWs were shackled together and kicked down into holes where rabid dogs tore their flesh apart. The Japanese were awful in their conduct.

My grandfather suffered an eye injury in Burma, I should try and dig up some documents if possible.. I doubt he'd approve of the savage Burmese state in existence today.


 
22.    22nd March 2013, 23:56#22

Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
Japan rather bluntly called their policy "Kill all, rape all, loot all". There are stories of how Chinese POWs were shackled together and kicked down into holes where rabid dogs tore their flesh apart. The Japanese were awful in their conduct.

My grandfather suffered an eye injury in Burma, I should try and dig up some documents if possible.. I doubt he'd approve of the savage Burmese state in existence today.
The japanese were savagely cruel. 

My father also fought on the burmese front, was shot in the chest and survived, had to come home early. Doubt he would have approved what Burma has become today. Did you catch the Sky news report on Burmese violence today?
23.    22nd March 2013, 23:57#23
for those interested heres a war memorial page, i linked to the singapore one because thats the one i had faved. if you search through you start to find so many people, i found 6 from in and around my village out of which i think my dad had heard of 2 people.
24.    23rd March 2013, 00:00#24
Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army during WWII
You guys are lucky to know your family history . Of the little I know I have an great uncle who fought in 65 and 72 . After my grandad I don't know a lot about who was around before his time .


 
A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

Malcolm X
25.    23rd March 2013, 00:09#25

Quote Originally Posted by pakistanalltheway View Post
You guys are lucky to know your family history . Of the little I know I have an great uncle who fought in 65 and 72 . After my grandad I don't know a lot about who was around before his time .
lols, i got the whole story when i went to the village few years back....

legend goes a powerful landowner got his daughter wed, granted her some lands and as was custom then some men came and lifted her doli to take her to her to be inlaws for the wedding...

on the way there nature called so she demanded that she be let off to do what she had too, but as it was against tradition she was forbidden to do so repeatedly, eventually she got so annoyed she got out of the carraige or whatever it was and told the lot of them to bog off and she settled the lands her father gave her.

worrying about her security her father ordered his son (her brother) and his wife to go settle near her and look after her and we were the descendents of her brother and sister in law, but the village is named after her, which pbly explains a lot about the women in my family (joking).

could all just be old wives tales though... only thing failry certain is my village got settled in the late 1700s.
Last edited by ElRaja; 23rd March 2013 at 00:13.
26.    23rd March 2013, 00:21#26
Today's Pakistanis in the British Indian Army during WWII

Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
lols, i got the whole story when i went to the village few years back....

legend goes a powerful landowner got his daughter wed, granted her some lands and as was custom then some men came and lifted her doli to take her to her to be inlaws for the wedding...

on the way there nature called so she demanded that she be let off to do what she had too, but as it was against tradition she was forbidden to do so repeatedly, eventually she got so annoyed she got out of the carraige or whatever it was and told the lot of them to bog off and she settled the lands her father gave her.

worrying about her security her father ordered his son (her brother) and his wife to go settle near her and look after her and we were the descendents of her brother and sister in law, but the village is named after her, which pbly explains a lot about the women in my family (joking).

could all just be old wives tales though... only thing certain is my ancestors were most likely sikh 400 or 500 years ago, and my village got settled in the late 1700s.
Lol what a story . 
My great grandad worked for the man who owned most of the village . He worked for him for about 40 years as a farm labourer . When he was about 60 years old he asked the landlord for a piece of land just big enough to build a small house on . The landowner said ok but he wanted a lot of money . Now this was back in the 70s and my grandad was here in the uk he went back to the village and gave the money but even then he refused to give the land . My grandma begged him and he ended up giving the land . That house for as long as I am alive will remain standing because to me it has sentimental value .


 
A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

Malcolm X
27.    23rd March 2013, 01:06#27

Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
Few peoples ignore that the British Indian Army during the WWII was the largest volunteer army in history, at 2.5 million ; fewer peoples know that this British Indian Army had a non negligible presence of peoples from today's Pakistan, one of its ethnic groups, the Punjabi Muslims to not name them, called the "backbone of the British Indian Army" (Lieutenant-General Sir George MacMunn.) 

Reading that "British Pakistani" thread, I was wondering if there were was an awareness of their (grandfathers) contributions in favour of the British during the WWII ?



http://defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm

An informative little clip:



Punjabi Muslims:



The first ever Victoria Cross ("highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy given to British and Commonwealth forces") to be awarded to someone from British India was given to Khudadad Khan, from today's Chakwal district, Punjab province of Pakistan





Do you think it might give a "sense of belonging" to the British Pakistanis, making assimilation or at least integration an easier task ?
I always read about Sikhs or Gurkhas and their services for the British, but rarer about today's Punjabi Muslims and/or Pakistanis.

khudad khan (is a pashtun akher), but born in punjab like imran khan and ahmed shahzad, so if you want to claim him as your own then fair enough
mir dast khan
ali haider khan bangash


the three pashtun in history to recieve a victorias cross for bravery
 http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/images/smilies/smiles/1.gif

just correcting what was in the op, dont mind
Last edited by Myrmidon; 23rd March 2013 at 01:13.
28.    23rd March 2013, 01:12#28
You do realize punjabis also have "Khan" surname? Not as common as in KP ofcourse.
29.    23rd March 2013, 04:35#29
my great grandfather fought in both first and second great war for British ..went to middle east, Burma, Italy during expedition ..was honored by queen herself during a ceremony in Delhi in 1921 we still have that certificate with British coat of arms printed on it.


 
“I’m not God but if I were God, ¾ of you
would be girls, and the rest would be pizza and
beer.”
30.    23rd March 2013, 05:36#30
This is one of the first times in a while that I've just enjoyed reading a thread and learning different stories and experiences. Thankyou everyone for sharing, and I hope to read more.

I worry that it is not directly related, but feel inspired enough to discuss it anyway. I wish to visit Ypres at some point because my great uncle was killed there in WWI. He was very young. It is a tradition for every man of the family to go and pay tribute at Menin Gate and I now feel ready to go and do it myself. There are 54,406 casualties honoured at this memorial alone, and that is only people who were identified! The scale of death and loss thus becomes incalculable.
 

Ultimately, all of these people we are discussing on an Internet forum fought and died so we could have the privilege of living as we do now. It's incredibly humbling. Personally the above is the only military history I am aware of in my family; my grandparents were all evacuated as children during the Second World War, so they all have different kinds of stories to tell.
31.    23rd March 2013, 05:42#31
 (British) Indians who received Victoria Cross in WWII.

 
HTML Code:
Abdul Hafiz         9th Jat Infantry   
Ali Haidar          13th Frontier Force Rifles    
Bhandari Ram        Garhwal Rifles     
Chhelu Ram          6th Rajputana Rifles
Fazal Din 10th Baluch Regiment
Gian Singh          15th Punjab Regiment
Kamal Ram 8th Punjab Regiment
Karamjeet Judge     4/15th Punjab Regiment        
Namdeo Jadav        5th Maratha Light Infantry    
Nand Singh                     1/11th Garhwal Rifles         
Parkash Singh       8th Punjab Regiment           
Prakash Singh       13th Frontier Force Rifles    
Premindra Bhagat    Corps of Indian Engineers     
Ram Singh Garhwal Rifles
Richhpal Ram        6th Rajputana Rifles          
Sher Shah           16th Punjab Regiment          
Umrao Singh                    Royal Indian Artillery        
Yeshwant Ghadge     Maratha Light Infantry
32.    23rd March 2013, 05:45#32

Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Riswat View Post
Well you've answered your own question. In Britain, no one is aware that the British army had any foreign soldiers, never mind Pakistanis who died for the cause. Why would Punjabis be proud of it when their host nation isn't?
It's quite shocking actually that for a public generally quite proud of its armed forces, most British people aren't aware that in the past, and now, we have been and are joined by many courageous men and women from around the world. 

I will say though that, aside from the general public, Her Majesty's government itself has great respect for our military history - even today, anybody from Britain, Ireland or much of the Commonwealth can join the British Army, almost as a testament to the unity through diversity which has protected us in the past, and continues to keep us safe. This upholds our open-minded values and mirrors our accepting multicultural society very well.
33.    23rd March 2013, 06:14#33

Quote Originally Posted by mani1 View Post
I don't think they care unless they want to brag "Potohar shera na ilhaqa"
34.    23rd March 2013, 06:44#34
my cousin grandfather served in British army in WW2 ..he was part of brit army which captured Egypt from Italians


 
“I’m not God but if I were God, ¾ of you
would be girls, and the rest would be pizza and
beer.”
35.    23rd March 2013, 06:49#35
wonder what our grandkids will have to say about us.

my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.

what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
36.    23rd March 2013, 12:32#36

Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
It's quite shocking actually that for a public generally quite proud of its armed forces, most British people aren't aware that in the past, and now, we have been and are joined by many courageous men and women from around the world. 

I will say though that, aside from the general public, Her Majesty's government itself has great respect for our military history - even today, anybody from Britain, Ireland or much of the Commonwealth can join the British Army, almost as a testament to the unity through diversity which has protected us in the past, and continues to keep us safe. This upholds our open-minded values and mirrors our accepting multicultural society very well.
Or it may also be due to not many people joining the british army to fill up the required numbers?
37.    23rd March 2013, 14:31#37

Quote Originally Posted by Shaddy View Post
Or it may also be due to not many people joining the british army to fill up the required numbers?
Not at all, the Army is constantly being downsized.
38.    23rd March 2013, 14:38#38

Quote Originally Posted by GentleMan View Post
wonder what our grandkids will have to say about us.

my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.

what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
How about our grand fathers died so we can troll? We are living in golden age right now.
39.    23rd March 2013, 14:45#39
 My dad fought for the British in Burma along with my Uncle and many others from our village. After the War he joined the Pakistani army(he was court-martialed for doing his duty by a very prominent General) and then he came to England in 1961.
40.    23rd March 2013, 14:53#40

Quote Originally Posted by GentleMan View Post
(British) Indians who received Victoria Cross in WWII.

 
lol ali haider bangash has never classified himself as an indian http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/images/smilies/smiles/7.gif

also incidenlty, is that the sher shah from near enough mianwali? of the awan tribe?
Last edited by Myrmidon; 23rd March 2013 at 15:17.
41.    23rd March 2013, 15:03#41

Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
How about our grand fathers died so we can troll? We are living in golden age right now.
we are living in the most boring age..nothing is exciting about this age.. you get some extra leg space in a flight, and that becomes so exciting that you put it on fb.. the highlight of your day becomes some troll war on a forum.. your battles are online, laptops are your trenches and usernames are your camouflage.. you are not man enough to deal with your own problems and come online to ask equally boring strangers about how to deal with compulsive shopping. yeah, golden age right.
42.    23rd March 2013, 15:18#42Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
You do realize punjabis also have "Khan" surname? Not as common as in KP ofcourse.
im not ignorant, i know quite alot about pashtuns who have won the VC, was just correcting akher
43.    23rd March 2013, 15:20#43
Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
Japanese army was very cruel to the british pows. Japanese PoWs in my family did not live long after the war.
An old family friend of ours was captured by the Japanese who pitied him and the others captured for fighting for white men and treated them fairly decently. I guess he was lucky.
44.    23rd March 2013, 15:23#44
To be honest I dont feel much pride for those Pakistani or Indian soldiers. They were fighting for the freedom of others but had no freedom of their own.

I don't condemn them but I guess my overriding feeling is of sympathy for all that they had to do and see for their oppressors war.
45.    23rd March 2013, 15:24#45

Quote Originally Posted by Myrmidon View Post
im not ignorant, i know quite alot about pashtuns who have won the VC, was just correcting akher
At the end of the day he was Pakistani, thats the important part.
46.    23rd March 2013, 15:34#46
there was no pakistan during that time dude
47.    23rd March 2013, 15:44#47
There was always a pakistan..right from the ancient baluchitherium dinosaur to the 7 foot tall porus to shahid afridi.
48.    23rd March 2013, 15:47#48

Quote Originally Posted by GentleMan View Post
There was always a pakistan..right from the ancient baluchitherium dinosaur to the 7 foot tall porus to shahid afridi.
Well said 
49.    23rd March 2013, 15:49#49

Quote Originally Posted by GentleMan View Post
There was always a pakistan..right from the ancient baluchitherium dinosaur to the 7 foot tall porus to shahid afridi.
Reminds me of Ancient Macedonia and it's famous Kings Phillip and Alexander claimed by ....
50.    23rd March 2013, 15:53#50

Quote Originally Posted by GentleMan View Post
wonder what our grandkids will have to say about us.

my grandfather was a legendary poster/troll, he had over 10 thousand posts.
my grandfather was expert in Bollywood news.
my cousins grandfather was such a warrior that he got his IP blocked from neighbour's forums.

what have we achieved that our grandkids would be proud of us?
your age group peers in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan & Palestine wont have to worry like you . They will have a completely different story to tell, to their grandchildren

easy to relay views on a forum, and being all anonymous. But none of us can be worthy of being chivalrous.
Last edited by kamz; 23rd March 2013 at 15:55.
51.    23rd March 2013, 15:55#51

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
An old family friend of ours was captured by the Japanese who pitied him and the others captured for fighting for white men and treated them fairly decently. I guess he was lucky.

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
To be honest I dont feel much pride for those Pakistani or Indian soldiers. They were fighting for the freedom of others but had no freedom of their own.

I don't condemn them but I guess my overriding feeling is of sympathy for all that they had to do and see for their oppressors war.
How much have you looked into WWII history so far?
52.    23rd March 2013, 16:02#52

Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
How much have you looked into WWII history so far?
Enough to wonder why poor guys from India were fighting for Britain who didnt give a damn about them.
53.    23rd March 2013, 16:06#53
i share the views of DV, but didn't want to express it here. The British Indian soldiers fought because being a part of the british army was a prestigious position to hold..you became a part of the rulers..they had accepted the subservient role under a benign ruler who gave them the respect in society (martial race theory) and they gave their lives in return.
54.    23rd March 2013, 16:15#54
They were part of the British empire, they had all rights if not duties to serve it, and in fact it seems that these Punjabi Muslims at least preferred to "serve" them than some others, as soon after they asked for a new country, so they didn't "hate" them that much, probably why so many of them are found in the UK nowadays I guess.
55.    23rd March 2013, 16:20#55

Quote Originally Posted by Myrmidon View Post
khudad khan (is a pashtun akher), but born in punjab like imran khan and ahmed shahzad, so if you want to claim him as your own then fair enough
mir dast khan
ali haider khan bangash


the three pashtun in history to recieve a victorias cross for bravery
 

just correcting what was in the op, dont mind
Bro.

First of all I said that it concerned
 a lot of ethnicities of today's Pakistan, not only Punjabis.
Punjabis, Pashtuns, Baloch and even Sindhis, and in fact many of the Sikhs who then went to today's India were from today's Pakistan at the time when they chose the British Indian Army.
BUT I precised that Punjabi Muslims were special in the sense that they were the most numerous and called the "backbone" of the said Army.

Now, about Khudadad Khan, he might have been Pashtun but in British papers he was born in Punjab and probably classified as such but even if that's not the case, that doesn't change what I said in OP : a lot of the soldiers were from today's Pakistan AND within THAT group, the majority were Punjabi Muslims.

That thread was for ALL British Pakistanis.
Prakash Singh 13th Frontier Force Rifles 


He was from our clan from my mother's side.
Last edited by Eagle_Eye; 23rd March 2013 at 16:24.
56.    23rd March 2013, 16:25#57
One of the reasons that Punjabi muslims were valued by the British was because of their perceived bravery and on the other side of the coin-in the case of my Dad and others in our village, the land wasn`t fertile enough( lack of rainfall in the pothowar and no rivers) to feed the families so they had to find another source of income.
57.    23rd March 2013, 16:30#58

Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
They were part of the British empire, they had all rights if not duties to serve it, and in fact it seems that these Punjabi Muslims at least preferred to "serve" them than some others, as soon after they asked for a new country, so they didn't "hate" them that much, probably why so many of them are found in the UK nowadays I guess.
Sure, they had the forced duty to serve it. Members of my own family did too and as I said its not something I condemn but given the atrocities that the British committed its not something that I'm totally proud of. I commend their bravery but not their cause.
58.    23rd March 2013, 16:33#59

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
Enough to wonder why poor guys from India were fighting for Britain who didnt give a damn about them.
I just assumed from your statements that you were aware of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere post-1940 and also the principle of hakkō ichiu, which together suggest that Imperial Japan after conquering all of East Asia and isolating Australia would then have looked to press its interests further west; the Japanese Empire at its peak ruled territories and maintained puppet governments on the doorstep of the Indian subcontinent. Historians generally feel that Japan would have become a dominant pan-Asian imperial power had the war panned out differently (you would also presumably see that as an oppressive outcome). So there are lots of reasons why South Asians may have fought on the Allied side.
59.    23rd March 2013, 16:35#60

Quote Originally Posted by GentleMan View Post
i share the views of DV, but didn't want to express it here. The British Indian soldiers fought because being a part of the british army was a prestigious position to hold..you became a part of the rulers..they had accepted the subservient role under a benign ruler who gave them the respect in society (martial race theory) and they gave their lives in return.
Its something I dont like expressing either. I usually inform British people of the sacrifices made by Indians during the empire when they get carried away with the way their grandparents etc died for them to be free but I dont feel particularly proud about it.

Its strange as I'm British and loyal to Britain but can't identify with my ancestors who were 'loyal' to the British empire of that time. I identify more with the INA tbh.

Again just to point out not a condemnation of anybody who died in the British Indian army, I totally respect and admire them.
60.    23rd March 2013, 16:37#61

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
Sure, they had the forced duty to serve it. Members of my own family did too and as I said its not something I condemn but given the atrocities that the British committed its not something that I'm totally proud of. I commend their bravery but not their cause.
In recent and contemporary history i think you will fail to find a cause to go to war more noble than to defeat imperial japan imo.
61.    23rd March 2013, 16:37#62

Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
I just assumed from your statements that you were aware of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere post-1940 and also the principle of hakkō ichiu, which together suggest that Imperial Japan after conquering all of East Asia and isolating Australia would then have looked to press its interests further west; the Japanese Empire at its peak ruled territories and maintained puppet governments on the doorstep of the Indian subcontinent. Historians generally feel that Japan would have become a dominant pan-Asian imperial power had the war panned out differently (you would also presumably see that as an oppressive outcome). So there are lots of reasons why South Asians may have fought on the Allied side.
What difference would it have made to British Indians? A new master thats all. They were second class citizens and not able to choose their own destiny under the British.
Last edited by DeadlyVenom; 23rd March 2013 at 16:38.
62.    23rd March 2013, 16:38#63

Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
In recent and contemporary history i think you will fail to find a cause to go to war more noble than to defeat imperial japan imo.
They were already living under a brutal empire. Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on behalf of the Imperial British.
63.    23rd March 2013, 16:42#64
What difference would it have made to British Indians? A new master thats all. They were second class citizens and not able to choose their own destiny under the British.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Would you have preferred an alternative history where we were all (not just Asian people) ruled under the Fourth Reich or the Empire of Japan? Because these were the aggressors, the forces which were defeated in the Second World War by the Allies, Commonwealth et al.
64.    23rd March 2013, 16:45#65

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
They were already living under a brutal empire. Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on behalf of the Imperial British.
i can only talk about what ive heard from my family members, and there was nothing brutal about living under the british for them. you have to remember the indian subcontinent was a pastiche of semi autonomous, vassal and directly ruled states therefore the treatment of citizens varied from area to area.

the areas from which the british empire recruited soldiers were usually allowed to get on with there life.
65.    23rd March 2013, 16:47#66

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
They were already living under a brutal empire. Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on behalf of the Imperial British.
the Empire of Japan killed around 10 million East Asian civilians between 1936 and 1945, and millions more in its existence before that, presumably you knew all of this as well.
66.    23rd March 2013, 16:48#67

Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
They were already living under a brutal empire. Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on behalf of the Imperial British.
Well, that's where I don't agree, as it actually wasn't.

How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not
 that cruel to today's Pakistanis.

Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.

In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.

You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
67.    23rd March 2013, 16:51#68
They were already living under a brutal empire. Theirs something deliciously ironic about fighting the Imperial Japanese on behalf of the Imperial British.
You are making a comparison that is not borne out of any real historical fact here.

Japan were far, far more brutal than the British Empire - who were a loathsome empire that exploited many a population - there's that famous phrase, 'the sun never sets on the British Empire, because God doesn't trust the British in the dark'. The British Empire was far from that moralising force that the likes of Kipling depict it to be. Don't get me started on the morally bankrupt British Empire.

However your statement that they would be living under another brutal empire 'that's all' is ludicrous. Japan's campaign of colonisation between the late 19th century and until the end of the Second World War was one of the worst episodes in history. Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

 

The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that: "It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians (i.e. Soviet citizens); the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. 

Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale,
 though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as (forced) prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not the Soviet Union) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; (by comparison) the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%."
Japan carried out human experimentation on civilians and POWs, not to mention the use of 'comfort women'. 

This martial race idea is nonsense, there was a reason why people in the Indian sub-continent fought against the Japanese and it certainly wasn't out of their loyalty and affection for the British, it was to defeat one of the most savage entities in history.
Last edited by Markhor; 23rd March 2013 at 16:52.

68.    23rd March 2013, 16:53#69

Quote Originally Posted by akheR View Post
Well, that's where I don't agree, as it actually wasn't.

How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not
 that cruel to today's Pakistanis.

Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.

In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.

You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
very well said, id also like to add the british empire in india as found under the east india company was a business venture, and for the punjabis of modern day pakistan colonisation by the british was also seen almost as a business venture, in so much as they viewed the brits as providing an administrative structure which they paid for by there tax money.

that is why they so readily accepted all british poltical and military institutions. they were militarily dominated by the brits, so they looked to make the most of the situation.
Last edited by ElRaja; 23rd March 2013 at 16:55.
69.    23rd March 2013, 16:55#70

Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
i can only talk about what ive heard from my family members, and there was nothing brutal about living under the british for them. you have to remember the indian subcontinent was a pastiche of semi autonomous, vassal and directly ruled states therefore the treatment of citizens varied from area to area.

the areas from which the british empire recruited soldiers were usually allowed to get on with there life.
It was an occupation. Those people who asked for rights were put down brutally.
70.    23rd March 2013, 16:59#71

Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
the Empire of Japan killed around 10 million East Asian civilians between 1936 and 1945, and millions more in its existence before that, presumably you knew all of this as well.
In his book Late Victorian Holocausts, published in 2001, Mike Davis tells the story of famines that killed between 12 and 29 million Indians. These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy. When an El Niño drought destituted the farmers of the Deccan plateau in 1876 there was a net surplus of rice and wheat in India. But the viceroy, Lord Lytton, insisted that nothing should prevent its export to England. In 1877 and 1878, at the height of the famine, grain merchants exported a record 6.4m hundredweight of wheat. As the peasants began to starve, officials were ordered “to discourage relief works in every possible way”. The Anti-Charitable Contributions Act of 1877 prohibited “at the pain of imprisonment private relief donations that potentially interfered with the market fixing of grain prices”. The only relief permitted in most districts was hard labour, from which anyone in an advanced state of starvation was turned away. In the labour camps, the workers were given less food than inmates of Buchenwald. In 1877, monthly mortality in the camps equated to an annual death rate of 94%.

As millions died, the imperial government launched “a militarised campaign to collect the tax arrears accumulated during the drought”. The money, which ruined those who might otherwise have survived the famine, was used by Lytton to fund his war in Afghanistan. Even in places that had produced a crop surplus, the government’s export policies, like Stalin’s in Ukraine, manufactured hunger. In the north-western provinces, Oud and the Punjab, which had brought in record harvests in the preceeding three years, at least 1.25m died.

From Late Victorian Holocausts.

How can few hundred thousands of British civil servants control the whole SC ? Simply because they weren't the French, who's soldiers in Algeria used to take photo-shoots with beheaded rebels, even less the Spanish, who, we all know, literally annihilated any trace of indigenous life where they put their imperial step.
Let's be honest, the British were the most "respectable colonisers" (if indeed that's not an oxymoron), these Punjabi Muslims who enrolled in such numbers probably felt safer under them than Ranjit Singh and the Sikhs who used to humiliate them.
Why during the famous 1857 "independence" war against the British there was literally no noise from today's Pak Punjab, and nearly all from UP/Bihar (where the Mughals still had influence) ?
Simply because the British were perhaps not
 that cruel to today's Pakistanis.

Just look at the major cities of Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore and you can see major British legacy, whereas nothing from the Sikhs.

In fact, if you go back in the time and you'd ask those who live in today's Pak Punjab who they would have preferred between the British, the Mughals and the Sikhs, they would have given their preference by putting British at first and Sikhs last.

You also have to keep in mind that there wasn't any nation back then. There was no "Pakistan" (or "India") and they didn't felt that their "country" was "occupied". The identity back then was not even cultural (Punjabi) but probably local (in terms of caste), so when they saw British building roads and schools instead of Sikhs transforming mosques into dumps, they probably welcomed them warmly.
Your post is not incorrect. However again I can only see irony in occupied people fighting for the freedom of their occupiers. During world war 2 the forces of democracy threw Nehru into prison for a civil protest http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/images/smilies/smiles/5.gif

Only out of fear of the Japanese did Britain make some concessions to Indians. So I guess for that I am strangely thankful to Japan.
71.    23rd March 2013, 17:09#73

It was an occupation. Those people who asked for rights were put down brutally.
i dont mean to sound flippant of the people who died at the hands of the british in many parts of the empire, but talking specifically of that time and that place, i.e. pothwar region of modern day pak, where my family are from, the right to keeping your own land and fairly comprehensive religious and cultural freedom was more human rights than most people had.

there was no idea of a political agitation for the sake of others who may be suffering in other parts of the empire. it was a good life, whether it was the sikhs, mughals, or brits what difference would it make to a farmer as long as they are given the right to their property.

it may sound selfish but thats hw it was.
72.  Taking the side of the british was the way of social mobility for some communities..and british exploited that using their martial race theory.. tell a pathan for example, that he is the bravest of all people and pat his back, and he is taken for a ride and gives you his unquestioning loyalty. this was the case for many soldiers from different communities..subservient roles to a benign master.
73.    
Taking the side of the british was the way of social mobility for some communities..and british exploited that using their martial race theory.. tell a pathan for example, that he is the bravest of all people and pat his back, and he is taken for a ride and gives you his unquestioning loyalty. this was the case for many soldiers from different communities..subservient roles to a benign master.
what a dumb thing to say, the brits chose to play the martial race card on the pathans because fighting with them wasnt worth the effort. the brits were martially superior and the pathans knew this, a war with the pathans would have been a waste of time, money and lives on both sides. if you can diplomatically come to an arrangement, why not?

any other ethnic group in british india would have done much the same like many a "royal prince" did all over india to appease the empire. no doubt flattered by the british appreciation of their majesty.
Last edited by ElRaja; 23rd March 2013 at 17:20.

74.    

]i dont mean to sound flippant of the people who died at the hands of the british in many parts of the empire, but talking specifically of that time and that place, i.e. pothwar region of modern day pak, where my family are from, the right to keeping your own land and fairly comprehensive religious and cultural freedom was more human rights than most people had.[/B]

there was no idea of a political agitation for the sake of others who may be suffering in other parts of the empire. it was a good life, whether it was the sikhs, mughals, or brits what difference would it make to a farmer as long as they are given the right to their property.

it may sound selfish but thats hw it was.
Can you go into detail? Against what people are you comparing them?
75.  Oh just learned that BBC news presenter Mishal Husain's grandfather, Major General Syed Shahid Hamid , was not only in the British Indian Army, but quite an important individiual in Pakistan's history too

 

SYED SHAHID HAMID was one of the most important military and political figures in the early years of Pakistan. As private secretary to Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck, the last Commander- in-Chief of the British-Indian army before India was partitioned in 1947, Shahid Hamid was an inside player in the crucial months during partition - a period which he later researched and on which he wrote several books.

Shahid Hamid was a man of wide interests: a soldier, writer, explorer, sportsman, educationalist and a devout Muslim
...
Shahid Hamid opted for Pakistan and, as a Lieutenant-Colonel in 1948, he set up the now famous Inter Services Intelligence from a small office in Karachi. The ISI is Pakistan's premier intelligence agency and virtually ran the Afghan war against the Soviet invaders. In 1951, at the age of 41, he became the youngest general in the Pakistan army - a record that is still unbeaten. During the 1958 martial law imposed by General Ayub Khan, Shahid Hamid was the adjutant-general of the army. Retiring in 1964, he went into business but was summoned back to public life in 1978 by President Zia ul-Haq, under whom he served as a federal cabinet minister for three years.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...d-1497723.html


Considering that boxer Amir Khan's family are Rajputs from Rawalpindi, I'm *SURE* he had some relatives there too.
Last edited by akheR; 23rd March 2013 at 17:21.

76.    
The preparations for British withdrawal from India had already begun before World War II started, and the INA or the movements arising out of it achieved nothing other than to collaborate with a Japanese Empire that was allied to one of the most horrific ideologies in Nazi Germany. The will to relinquish the Raj existed already.

 

 What difference would it have made to British Indians? A new master thats all. They were second class citizens and not able to choose their own destiny under the British.
I don't think we should get into an argument of which empire was worse as we risk reducing World War Two to 'good guy, bad guy', which it was not. You have to look at the context of the situation. What do you think would have happened if the Indian SC came under Japanese rule ? The Japanese had a mantra of 'Kill all, rape all, loot all' - look at the treatment of the Chinese - the British were brutal but nothing on the scale of the Chinese occupation by Japan. 

Japan's racial prejudices would have meant that the Indians of the sub-continent will have been viewed as inferior and would also have been subject to harsh rule too.
 

In six weeks alone, the Japanese killed 250,000 in Nanking, 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly. The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them.
 

On 19 December 1937, Reverend James M. McCallum wrote in his diary:

 

I know not where to end. Never I have heard or read such brutality. Rape! Rape! Rape! We estimate at least 1,000 cases a night, and many by day. In case of resistance or anything that seems like disapproval, there is a bayonet stab or a bullet ... People are hysterical ... Women are being carried off every morning, afternoon and evening. The whole Japanese army seems to be free to go and come as it pleases, and to do whatever it pleases.
Japan had no interest in bringing about self-determination for Indians, only to gain strategic access to the Indian Ocean. Japan also believed in the same Nazi ideology of racial supremacy - they believed the Yamato race was pure and that they had a divine right to enslave other races. Indeed Gandhi made your point about the hypocrisy of the British, but again, ask the Chinese what they think of the Japanese occupation and they'll testify it was one of the most darkest periods in their history.

Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. The Japanese also slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese.
Last edited by Markhor; 23rd March 2013 at 17:23.


 
77.    

Prakash Singh 13th Frontier Force Rifles 


He was from our clan from my mother's side.
How's that possible. Or did moms side convert to Islam ?

what a dumb thing to say, the brits chose to play the martial race card on the pathans because fighting with them wasnt worth the effort. the brits were martially superior no doubt, but a war with the pathans would have been a waste of time, money and lives if you can diplomatically bring them into the structure.

any other ethnic group in British india would have done much the same like many a "royal prince" did all over india to appease the empire. no doubt flattered by the British appreciation of their majesty.
the brits could have thrashed anyone, not because they were braver..but because they had the best arms in the world..but you are right, they didnt want to waste time fighting..When the same tribes could be won over by patronizing them.. There was a reason they disbanded the bengal regiment, because it was where the 1857 rebellion began after that the brits played their card well and started patronizing groups that were loyal to them. i wouldn’t be proud of something like that.



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